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't tell where he stands. will ryan be ryan tonight or a second best romney? force him to middle that decision. make him choose every minute, joe biden, between being his ideological self and being just another pal. that's what i'd do tonight to him. i'd force him. >> that question of distance between romney and ryan and whether there is any i think is going to be the most interesting thing to watch for on the republican side tonight, chris. i agree with you there. lawrence o'donnell is in the spin room at the debate in danville, kentucky. lawrence, what are you looking to tonight in terms of differences of the debate last week? >> well, the rules are somewhat different, rachel. they're attempting to get to more topics tonight. last week, the design was six top topics. jim lehrer only had time for five because basically the candidates went longer in every section. the idea, tonight, is in this 90-minute debate, there will be nine topics, ten minutes each for the nine topics. but each candidate will begin each topic with a two-minute statement. so let's assume for a moment that ea
of a numbers guy. >> the poll numbers for romney and ryan soaring after the first presidential debate. democrats openly counting on joe biden tonight to stop that republican momentum. >> osama bin laden is dead and general motors is arrive. >> the 2012 vice presidential debate starts right now. >>> happy debate night, everybody. the best television series of 2011 was the republican primary debates. there were 1 million of them. they played to huge audiences week after week and never disappointed. now it is october 2012 and the most compelling thing on television anywhere in the country is once again the debates. only now there are only two candidates at a time and the stakes are way higher. i'm rachel maddow. here on our msnbc headquarters in new york. i'm joined by ed schultz, reverend al sharpton, chris hayes, steve schmidt. lawrence o'donnell is our man in the spin room tonight. the one and only chris matthews is at centre college in danville, kentucky, the site of tonight's debate. chris, is this unusually high stakes for a vice presidential debate? >> well, it's great being with
, hitting romney by going after the target rich ryan budget. strategy the obama camp signaled with a web video today. >> they haven't given me the math. >> well, i don't have the -- it would take me too long to go through all of the math. >> reporter: biden, though, could be on defense because unlike the first debate focused only on domestic issues this time half of the agenda is foreign policy. so the door is wide open for tough questions act security failures leading to the terror attack in libya. and the administration's mixed messages. then there are the gaffes. >> how they can justify raising taxes in the middle class has been buried the last four years. >> reporter: they may give ryan fodder, analyst note the vice president performs better when the speaking time is limited. >> in debates; particularly, against sarah palin four years ago he was disciplined. i don't think -- i think the republicans will be unwise to count on a biden gaffe. >> reporter: fox learned that the vice president was all over the place in his first debate prep session. that's why david axelrod and other top o
promised a relentless prosecution of the ryan budget. >> governor romney has embraced the ryan budget. well, he has. he's gone back and said, no, he agrees with it. i just want to make sure that, when i say these things, that i don't have the congressman saying, no, no, no, i don't have that position, or that's not the governor's position. >> expect biden to be more pointed and tough than the president was. the question, how aggressive will he be? he doesn't want to come off as unlikable or condescending. one thing biden has going for him, his, quote, unquote, gaffes. in a new pew poll, voters narrowly say they expect ryan to win tonight's debate in a 40-34 margin. although ryan is trying to down play expectations. >> joe biden has been on this stage many times before, and this is my first time. sure, it's a nervous situation because joe biden is one of the most experienced debaters we have in modern politics. but the achilles heel he has is president obama's record. >> and ryan is dealing with unrealistic pressure. the base of his party thinks of biden the same way democrats thought about
. feeling the love. what are the expectations coming from the romney campaign for paul ryan's big night tonight? here what happens his senior adviser, dan senor told chuck todd this morning, when it was really cold. >> he has to make the case about the choice in the election, all right? things have been rough over the last four years and it's incumbent on president obama and vice president biden to explain what exactly has happened over the last four years 23 million americans out of work, 47 million americans on food stamps 1 in 6 americans in poverty have them explain the rational for why they deserve a second term. there is a choice as it relates to the budgets, they are running on the romney/ryan agenda. governor romney laid out a plan, his five-point plan for the middle class. >> nbc's ron mott has been covering congressman ryan throughout and traveling with him and interviewing dan senor as well, and joins me now here. you've been with ryan camp. what is the mood? they must have gotten pumped up. >> totally. >> by the romney performance. now there's a whole expectation game for th
't run the numbers on that specific plan. >> since the romney upgrade the ryan model has been buggy. >> doesn't your budget also cop template major savings for medicare on something like the same amount? >> only president obama raids $716 billion from the medicare program, he cut $716 from the medicare program to pay for obama care. >> right. >> we don't do that. >> you make savings, how much? >> point -- we -- i joined the romney ticket and what mitt romney is proposing to do is repeal all of obama care. >> more than a month later, rhine's quant programs are in need of a software update. >> how much in its revenue neutral. >> we'll get to the deductions but the cut in tax rates. >> the cut in tax rates is lower all americans' tax rates. >> how much does it cost? >> revenue neutral. >> it's not revenue neutral unless you take away deductions. >> that's where i'm going. >> we're going to get to that. >> lowering tax rates broadening the tax base works you -- >> you haven't given me the math. >> i don't have the -- it would take me too long to go through all of the math. >> worse stil
version of the paul ryan will show up remain nearly impossible. just as mitt romney's staff wiped their hard drives after leaving the massachusetts's governor's office romney has done the saipe thing to his running mate's motherboard, reset to factory settings. this was the original model -- >> specifically, on spending, our budget spends $4.8 trillion less than the majority's budget. today we would have to set aside $56 trillion invested at treasury rates to make sure the programs are solvent. we're going to start bit cutting $6.2 trillion in spending. >> but at a product demo august 11 th rhine version 2.0 was foud to be significantly altered. >> he's the next vice president of the united states. >> look right here. >> just three days later, paul ryan suddenly had fewer numbers and fewer answers. >> the budget plan that you're now supporting would get to balance when? >> well, there are different -- the budget plan that mitt romney is supporting gets us down to 20% of gdp government spending by 2016. >> i get that but what about balance? >> i don't know exactly when it balances
, watching romney tell those untruths, i believe he had to do some of that because the only thing paul ryan was doing was complementing what romney was doing, which was lying. so i believe biden had to interrupt because there were times when things ryan was saying did not make any sense. the 47%, they cannot clarify the that this really has hurt a lot of people by what they have said and they cannot live up to that. then president obama gets in office the first day and the republicans say we will do everything we can to make sure you are one-term president. how can you get things done when on your first day they refuse to help him? it's not like he can come across the aisle. they have already dropped him. americans need to wake up and see that this is just a thing where the republicans will make sure they say or do whatever they can to make sure obama is not elected. he has done things for the republican side of america as well as the democratic side. host: we will leave it there and move on to michael in columbus, georgia, on our mitt romney line. caller: house is going -- how is it going?
know, political topic it is is because of mitt romney and paul ryan. >> sean: we are just 25 days from the election. "hannity" starts right here, right now. tonight, the former vice-president of the united states, dick cheney is giving us his exclusive reaction to the debate. first, a recap of the faceoff between crazy uncle joe biden and congressman paul ryan. without question, the headline was biden's downright bizarre, strange, bewildering behavior. for nearly 90 minutes he was either uncontrollably laughing or rudely interrupting his opponent. not even the benghazi terror attack or the nuclear weapons program were enough to prevent these bizarre outbursts. >> it is never too early to speak out for our values. they keep misquoting him. but let me tell you about the mitt romney i know. don't raise taxes on small businesses because they are our job creators. >> vice-president biden. >> incredible. >> look, you both saw benjamin netanyahu hold up that picture of a bomb with the red line i. thank heavens we have the sanctions in place. it is in spite of their opposition. they have given
troubling by the day. they first blame the youtube video and now they are trying to blame the romney/ryan ticket for making this an issue. >> one of the few rabbit holes that ryan got sucked into was afghanistan and though ryan proved that he had knowledge about the war, he wanted to commit more troops to an open-ended deployment in what is an unpopular war. >> we are sending fewer people to the front to fight them. >> that's right. because that's the afghan responsibility. we've trained them. >> not in the east. >> let's move -- let move to another war. >> not in the east? >> it's the most dangerous place in the world. >> that's right. >> you would rather americans being sent in to do the jobs. >> we are already sending more americans in to do the jobs. >> afghans to do the job. afghans to do the job. >> there were tense moments like that, including where biden came close to channelling lloyd benson's famous attack on dan quayle. >> you can cut tax rates by 20% and still preserve -- >> not mathematically possible. >> it is possible and it's been done before. >> it has never been done bef
that paul ryan and mitt romney are stumping there today. >> i'm curious, mike, why the president isn't able to just stay in the white house. is it because the oval office duties beckon too much? or does he go to virginia because he wants to do a campaign stop here and there? >> reporter: i think it's got a lot to do with it. it's a two-fer. there are no public events on the president's schedule in virginia. there were no events in nevada we were told about. but he did go to hoover dam, has photo ops. so it's a side benefit. it's like a camp, a retreat where they can concentrate on what they need to do tuesday night. >> i wonder if he's planning like a five guys outing, you know? >> reporter: could be. he loves his burgers. no questions. >> before i let you go, mike, can i just ask you, the ten or of things going into this debate prep? how stressful do you sense the white house is about this when you combine both the president's performance last week and then joe biden's this? maybe it picked up a little bit they think with joe biden. >> i think there's a sense of relief that biden did what
. >> reporter: or ryan's attempt to compare the mitt romney tax plan to jack kennedy's. >> jack kennedy lowered tax rates. >> oh, now you're jack kennedy? >> reporter: ryan was able to fire back with a few zingers of his own. >> mr. vice president, i know you're under a lot of duress to make up for lost ground. i think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don't come out of your mouth the right way. >> reporter: republicans in the post debate spin room tried to make the case biden failed not only on style. >> quite frankly i was embarrassed for the vice president. i mean, the laughs. we counted 82 times that joe biden interrupted paul ryan. >> reporter: but also on substance pointing to the vice president's response on whether there was adequate security before the attack on the u.s. consulate in libya. >> and they wanted more security there. >> well, we weren't told they wanted more security. we did not know they wanted more security. >> we just had a major hearing on this. that was one of the heart -- the heart of the point was these requests went unheated. and obviously
was mitt romney. he picked paul ryan for a simple reason and the same reason he went to the olympics. he wanted to. he runs his campaign. he is the ceo of the campaign. he is his own karl rove. it has cost him a lot of problems. he is the product, not the ceo. that is how he set it up. they feel good about the ryan choice now. they gave republicans excitement. they needed it. if it costs them problems or florida, then it is a gap. >> i would do it differently. romney had had a bad summer. he had had a bad trip to europe. he came back. there was a discomfort in terms of where the campaign was and where they were headed. he wanted to shake things up. he did not think this was the time for a safe choice. there were two groups of people that were excited about the pick of paul ryan. hwang was conservative republicans and the others were congressional democrats. we could finally make the ryan plan a big deal. it did not end up being a positive or negative. it moved romney's numbers of about 2 points up and then dissipated. it closed things up in wisconsin and settle down. it has been fairly n
romney and ryan in the way the democrats go after the gop when it comes to entitlements, but as we know, last summer, president obama was happy to make serious changes to medicare in exchange for getting a grand bargain. if he is reelected, he will go back to the table and i am sure the same questions will be on the tae again he has said he is open to making those changes. >> let me explain the difference between what obama would do with a $716 billion, and what romney and ryan would do. obama takes the money out of medicare and reduces the payments to doctors and hospitals which obviously reduces services. one sixth of all hospitals will have to shut down or refuse the elderly. he takes the money, and the 716 he saves, and places it into a new entitlement called obamacare, which will fund the uninsured. good cause but it takes from a and gives to b. what ryan does, in the original plan, he takes the same amount, and put it back into the medicare trust fund so it is a way to invest in the future. medicare is a way to see that we are going to cut a little now and then we will have it in
but his macho vision for the country will and it should. ryan and romney are pushing a radical remaking of the social contract that americans have relied on for many decades. it's a investigation that includes a budget where 62% of the cuts come from the poor. cuts to medicaid, cuts to food stamps, pell grants, all while cuts to the defense department and oil industry continue as usual. ryan will have to defend that record tonight and he'll have to defend comments like these. >> before too long we could become a society that we were never, ever intended to be. we could become a society where the majority of americans are makers, not takers. they believe the american idea. only 30% want the welfare state. >> takers and makers. it's a distorted view of the american people and a deeply cynical one and it will be challenged tonight by another view. >> we have a fundamentally different values set than these guys do. we believe america does well. america's always prospered when hard work is rewarded. when everyone has a fair shot. everyone plays by the same rules. everyone gets a fair shake.
to the facts. but expect paul ryan to come out and lie just as much as mitt romney did last week. that's what i expect. >> the swing voters as well as the base, to they expect more about substance or style? >> first of all, no one in this country has made the case that vice president joe biden has done a bad job. the country knows who this man is. they know his background, they know he didn't go to the united states senate to be a millionaire. he went there to work on behalf of the people. so there's a lot of people that will expect a lot out of joe biden because they know who he is. but he'll be presenting the case that where we were and where we're going is great for america. and there is absolutely no question that if the chairman of the house budget committee, if he's all about numbers, he's not going to be able to deny what skr joe biden will say tonight. >> will we see a lot of zingers? >> what's a zinger, a fact? a fact of what the country wants, a fact of what we've been able to accomplish, the automobile loan? yesterday on the stump, paul ryan was trying to make the case that they're f
. today the shoe is on the other food for obama/biden and romney/ryan. last week it was the president's team facing high expectations. this week it is paul ryan who is expected to perform well. last week the stakes were monumental for the romney team who desperately needed a strong performance to overcome weeks of mistakes, bad polls and republican hand wringing. this week it is team obama facing high stakes to stop the bleeding and quiet the lamenting of freaked out democrats who were disappointed with last week's apathetic performance. the stylistic shoe may be on the other foot as well. ryan like obama can come across as cerebral and distant. one last thing, while the pressure is on for biden, a lot is at stake for ryan too. while he is well known by inside the belt way crowd, the national audience is just getting to know ryan. his unnecessary bending of the truth sullied his reputation. this is take two for ryan to make a favorable impression and to preserve his own future regardless of whether the romney ryan ticket. this is happening in kentucky, a state known for derby, bourbon
. >> like paul ryan, mitt romney also in ohio today. he is holding a pair of rallies, an indication of how critical the buckeye state and its 18 electoral votes are. president obama in virginia where he'll be preparing for the next campaign. the obama campaign has another tv ad out. it's narrated by none other than morgan freeman, the voice of vee a and the voice of god. >> every president inherits challenges. few have faced so many. four years later, our enemies have been brought to justice, our heros are coming home. assembly lines are humming again. >> and before you start sending your e-mails, the morgan freeman, of course, played god in "bruce almighty," just so you know. >>> the president landed in virginia a few moments ago. we're told he has no public meeting plans. kristen welker joining us. krist kristen, good saturday to you. >> good saturday to you. >> the president hunkering down for debate prep. what are you hearing about what he plans to do a little bit differently this time? >> reporter: well, craig, after that first debate, top obama campaign advisers said they were going
coverage starting at 2:45 eastern. mitt romney is teaming up with paul ryan for a rally in lancaster, ohio. c-span will have live coverage of that starting at 5:40 p.m. eastern. >> can we focus on the issues and not the personalities and the mud? there is a need, if we can take a poll here. there is a need to focus on the needs. >> how the gentlemen response? >> let's talk about these issues. let's talk about the programs that, in the presidency, a lot goes into it. caring goes into it. that is not specific. strength goes into it. that is not specific. this is what a president has to do. in principle, i will take your point and i think we ought to discuss child care or whatever else it is. >> and you, too? >> i will take the place because i know the american people want to talk about issues and not tabloid journalism. i will take the pledge and talk about the issues. for the record, i do not have any spin doctors or speechwriters. it probably shows. [laughter] i make those charts you see on television. if you don't have to wonder it is me talking. what you see is what you get. if you do no
will the romney/ryan plan help job creation. he didn't answer it. he attacked the obama administration. that's what we see time and time again by the radical romney plan is that they have no specifics. the fact of the matter is over the last 31 months, we've had private sector job growth, created 5.1 million new jobs. and as of last friday, we had the lowest unemployment rate we've enjoyed in the last four years. does more need to happen? of course it does. but that's why the president is going to win virginia, because he is talking about growing the middle class out and talking about job creation and strengthening our economy in ways that will invest for the future. he has a plan. the other side doesn't. it's resonating in virginia. and we're going to make history again in virginia and deliver to it barack obama. >> corey, the thinking was at the beginning of this campaign, the thinking was that the governor would be able to essentially run on the economy, that the unemployment numbers and that people's perceptions of the economy, that they were going to be in such shambles that that was go
a short time ago we heard from mitt romney's running mate paul ryan saying we're going to bring america back to number one in manufacturing. that stuff resonates in a state like this. but more than anything else, what the effort is this weekend, it's the fifth consecutive day that mitt romney has in one form or another spent some time in the state of ohio as it shows just how critical they pugh view this state, with the 270 electoral votes. it's not impossible. but much more difficult to get there without this state. i spoke to a top adviser in the campaign this week who said to me if you go through the three most challenging states, three of the most critical states this done, florida, ohio, and virginia, they think they have the best shot at florida, second best at ohio, this adviser items me, and number three is virginia. but clearly, this is a state that no republican has won the white house without it. no president has won the white house since john f. kennedy. >> that surprises me. you would think that second maybe virginia and then ohio. i guess that speaks to how confident the c
to mitt romney's and paul ryan's budget plan, it would cost $2,000 to pay for tax breaks for millionaires and billionaires, it turns medicare into a voucher system. that's one thing that mitt romney was honest about. he said that we should cut medicare benefits. embrace that and proposed it. and then to add insult to injury said, yeah, we won't be able to have medicare to continue to be a guarantee, we will have to shred that safety net to preserve it. barack obama's plan has proven we can add years of solvency, 8 years by making sure we reduce wasteful subsidies to medicare insurance companies and add years of solvency. we need to work together to continue to move forward, not have republicans rooting for failure and really transparently being disappointed that we have made progress. we have a ways to go, but we need to continue to move forward and fight for the middle class, not for the people who are doing really, really well and make sure they can do even better. >> shannon: you brought up obamacare. and medicare, but that's a plan, which outside independent bodies and fact-checking o
girl tir tied to walk in high school hallways after having problems over a romney-ryan t-shirt. >> gregg: 30 days out from election day, the governor is wrapping up a rally with supporters north of palm beach in what many say has now become a post debate victory tour. john roberts joins us from port st. lucy, florida. what is going on there? >> good afternoon. just wrapped up one of the biggest crowds so far. about 12,000 people here at this town square. where president obama won by 12 points back in 2008. he is feeling pretty good about things in florida. a new rasmussen poll has the governor two points ahead. here at this event he was looking to the next presidential debate a week from tuesday. he says he has questions on the president from taxes to debt and spending. >> he wants another stimulus? how did the first one work out? he wants to hire more government workers? he wants to pick with winners and losers solyndra, losers in his case. we know where that leads. we have seen the last four years. we don't want four more years like the last four years. >> reporter: the
been told by romney and ryan. i want to play what congressman ryan said at the rnc, a line that drew a lot of attention when he talked about a gm plant that he blamed the president for closing. let me play that moment from the rnc. >> when he talked about change, many people liked the sound of it, especially in janesville where we were about to lose a major factory. right there at that plant candidate obama said, i believe that if our government is there to support you, this plant will be here for another 100 years. that's what he said in 2008. well, as it turned out, that plant didn't last another year. >> mark, there are even conservatives who refer to that speech as being one of the most dishonest that they had seen. chris is talking about bringing the fight. how do you keep from going back and forth? will the moderator have to be the quote, unquote, fact checker in this? >> sometimes the best moderators stay away. i think it's incumbent on vice president biden. we saw president obama try to correct the record the next day after last week's debate, but that wasn't as effective. >>
in lancaster. romney talked about how proud he was of the vice presidential choice and ryan's performance at the debate earlier this week. >> we got to watch this guy debate, and there was one person on the stage with thoughtfulness, who was respectful, who was steady and poised. there's one person on that stage you'd want to be with the there were a crisis and it's this man right here. >> romney and ryan are both in ohio today. this is the live picture from youngstown. paul ryan will be speaking there in just a few minutes from now. ohio is one of the key swing states for both romney and obama. both have spent a whole lot of time there talking to voters. so how are the voters receiving all that attention? cnn political editor paul steinhauser joining us now to talk about that. good morning to you what. is the story in ohio? >> reporter: ohio -- it sounds like a broken record. but these candidates keep going back to ohio. the second straight day for mitt romney. the president was just there earlier this week. here's my unofficial count here. since the start of the general election, which
. >> romney and ryan are both in ohio today. this is the live picture from youngstown. paul ryan will be speaking there in just a few minutes from now. ohio is one of the key swing states for both romney and obama. both have spent a whole lot of time there talking to voters. so how are the voters receiving all that attention? cnn political editor paul steinhauser joining us now to talk about that. good morning to you what. is the story in ohio? >> reporter: ohio -- it sounds like a broken record. but these candidates keep going back to ohio. the second straight day for mitt romney. the president was just there earlier this week. here's my unofficial count here. since the start of the general election, which was usually considered early april, the president has now made 12 swings through ohio. this is the 16th swing for mitt romney. over $91 million spent by the campaigns. the party committees, the super pacs in ohio. 18 electoral votes at stake in such an important state. this is the state that put president george w. bush over the top in 2004. mitt romney really needs to win it
to romney. >> ryan is going to be brilliant. >> bill: whatever they do, it's a matter of i think both candidates will be very, very cautious. the reason i say that ryan lost it today was because you have to assume if you're ryan or romney that the press wants to hurt you, no matter who it is. when they do something as this reporter did, that was pretty stupid, you just laugh about it. come on. you roll your eyes. you don't react in a serious way because then that will be used against you. all right. >> remember, beating up on the left wing press works to the republican candidate's advantage every time. >> bill: if i had done that, if he said listen, you pinhead, that was an unfair question. but it looked like he wanted to get away from him so it didn't look good. later, john stossel on why some companies are hurting their workers over obamacare. interesting report. plus, selling your stuff. very quietly the supreme court may stop us from that! is it legal? moments away >> bill: in the impact segment, there is no question the romney campaign now has momentum because of the first debate
. the facts are on ryan's side. ryan will do what romney did. ryan is a naturally likable guy. he is young, so visual of young paul ryan next to washington fixer joe biden is a disadvantage that biden has. he will do what romney did and hammer him on the facts and in a respectful way. i think biden, the gaffe is going to be not being able to explain failures of the last four years. >> greg: bob, i will secure you this question. is there such a thing about becoming overly prepared? i ask you because we never worry about that with you. >> bob: it's vastly overrated. >> greg: do you they overly prepared joe biden? >> bob: kimberly is already at the beer truck. if she is that excited to be in danville, kentucky. >> dana: i love kentucky. >> bob: i bet you do. >> greg: danville has a great bakery there. it's called -- hold on a second. it's called the twisted siste sister. >> bob: biden will go in there with the idea of exposing ryan, ryan to get to romney. y'all keep saying it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. they don't have a program that's viable. joe will take them to the woodshed. >> greg: r
and unfair trade practices. at each event today, mitt romney and paul ryan have been trying to thump mr. obama for his absence of leadership on this, they say. here is a sampling from earlier today at mr. romney's convenient in portsmouth, ohio. >> over the past several years, the president failed to call china a currency manipulator. he had the occasion on friday to come out with that official designation. you know what they said? we're not going to make any determination until after the election. let me tell you, on day one of my administration, i will label china a currency manipulator. >> here in ohio, that is a particularly potent attack because the manufacturing base had taken such a hit over the past few years, both in the obama economy and before. paul ryan was campaigning today in youngtown, ohio. he made the point that mr. obama has had a number of chances to take steps to crack down on china and passed on them. watch. >> the administration had their eighth chance to label china a currency manipulator. it's due in two days. they say they're going to push this deadline off unti
presidential debate, and this is why mitt romney and paul ryan are spending so much time in the buckeye state. 51%, 45%. they are both there today. we're going to listen to mitt romney live in just a moment. topping our political headlines, though, within the hour, president obama is scheduled to land in newport, virginia, he's on his way to williamsburg where he's preparing for tuesday. he used the radio and internet address to focus on the economy, touting the impact of the bailout. >> to let detroit go bankrupt. i bet on american work and ingenuity and three years later that bet is paying off in a big kwa. today auto sales are higher thain even about been in three years. gm is back. ford and chrysler are growing again. we've created a quart ore of a a million new jobs right here in america. >> mitt romney holding a rally in ohio. this hour. it's about to get under way. in fact, we're going get a live update from the campaign trail in just a moment. in their weekly address, republicans also talking about the economy. it was delivered by oklahoma congressional candidate mark wayne mullet. >>
Search Results 0 to 49 of about 194 (some duplicates have been removed)